Dear All,

      It's often quite easy to tell a bad/undeveloped/cliche story by gut-feeling, but just to elaborate a bit more:

      1) It is often said that authors are eccentric people, and I guess this makes a certain amount of sense as originality is, after all, somewhat the equavalence of eccentricity in a good way. For a story to be good, it really has to be enjoyable throughout, and does not fume with hints of "copy-cat" or cliches all the way. I personally think that fantasies and science fictions have reach a peak these days, where the new stories coming out now are often the depiction of very used-up topics- and this is especially severe, because of all the fandoms going around. In other words, you see a boy with magic powers or "this is an elfin world" all the time.

     2) Continuing from above, the product of fandom is often not only unoriginal, but very low in quality, because they are often written by fans who squeal at "hawt guys" for fans who squeal at "hawt guys". In more generla terms, they do not mimic, or even attempt to mimic, the real world or at least a similar logical sequence, but are simply stories that want to rush to the kissing part fast- as someone put it on a certian previous post.

     3) To be a good book, the author really has to be original, and able to justify all the events/concepts that appear in his/her novel.

     4) And, of course, using good or at least classy/stylish English is quite essential.

-Puayen

On Sep 5, 2007 7:43 am, puayen said:
[quote]

It's often quite easy to tell a bad/undeveloped/cliche story by gut-feeling, but just to elaborate a bit more:

      1) It is often said that authors are eccentric people, and I guess this makes a certain amount of sense as originality is, after all, somewhat the equavalence of eccentricity in a good way. For a story to be good, it really has to be enjoyable throughout, and does not fume with hints of "copy-cat" or cliches all the way. I personally think that fantasies and science fictions have reach a peak these days, where the new stories coming out now are often the depiction of very used-up topics- and this is especially severe, because of all the fandoms going around. In other words, you see a boy with magic powers or "this is an elfin world" all the time.

     2) Continuing from above, the product of fandom is often not only unoriginal, but very low in quality, because they are often written by fans who squeal at "hawt guys" for fans who squeal at "hawt guys". In more generla terms, they do not mimic, or even attempt to mimic, the real world or at least a similar logical sequence, but are simply stories that want to rush to the kissing part fast- as someone put it on a certian previous post.

     3) To be a good book, the author really has to be original, and able to justify all the events/concepts that appear in his/her novel.

    [/quote]

I think you're quite right about that. There are so many fans like you describe at number 2 and it makes it quite hard to find the good stories among the forests of bad stories. Not only in fandom, but in original fiction as well. And like you said almost everything is done in the fields of science fiction and fantasy. I think to stay original you have to go into the more difficult parts. I'm trying to write about the subject of cloning in my cyberpunk novel in progress for example. It's hard to be original when almost everything has been done.

I don't write a lot of fanfiction anymore myself, because I try to focus everything on my original works. That is a lot harder since you have to come up with a world of your own and characters of your own and the storyline. There is no romance at all in there, so I'm not really in the hurry of getting to the kissing parts, lol.

I've been reviewing peoples stories for years, and I think what a "good or bad" story comes down to is whether the writer has the 'knack'. So to speak. Same as people who do photography, they need to have the 'eye' for it. Bad stories can be a mix of many things. For me its:

• Completely unoriginal and unimaginative, which kind of goes hand in hand with,
• Blatant rip offs. It's hard to be original, but there's a difference between 'homaging' something by using a idea from it, and copying it outright.
• Horrible spelling, grammar and sentence structure
• "Waffling" i.e. saying the same action or description, just in different ways so as to make the story appear longer
• Word repetition: I HATE word repetition. When I'm reviewing, about 80% of my corrections is suggesting people use an alternate word, rather then the same one over and over.
• Over descriptions. You read the first paragraph and it's an endless stream of pretenious babble on the landscape or something. Of course,
• Under describing is also bad. Shopping lists: "I went here. I did this. Then this happened" are among the worst story writing crimes.
• Poor character development. Unless it's a one shot, I'd really like to get a "feel" for the characters. It's hard to fall in love with a character who's got the emotional depth of Paris Hilton.
• Losing the plot. I've read some stories that just go completely off the rails and you can't even work out what's happening!

There's more obviously, but I get the feeling this thread was meant to be funny and not space for a rambling trainee english teacher to vent in :P Fun though. I'll be sure to check out some of you posters stories, seeing as you appreciate the art so much. ;)

You nailed it right there. As for grammar and spelling, English is not my native tongue and I haven't had any classes the last few years so I just went by what I knew. Finding a beta is hard sometimes. One of my friends uses the dictionary to come up with different words all the time, which is a good idea. I should do that too.

Even in a oneshot you can get a feel for a character. It just has to be done well. I love writing oneshots myself, so I've had a lot of practise in it. You just have to do it right. Ofcourse it's rather hard to get feeling for a character in a three page story, but if it's about 6 pages or more then it shouldn't be a problem to flesh out the character.

One of the things I keep messing up is this: Putting too many characters in a story. It happens to me the entire time. I'm working really hard on that. But because it annoys me when it happens to me I tend to notice it quickly with other people too. That way everyone gets confused with the characters, Who is that, who is that and who is this again.

Hrm, I was reading through this and I'm afraid I haven't got much to add, personally. But I do have to ask --

Lhunuial, what do you mean exactly by "too many characters"? Lol, I've always had the same problem and usually end up with about five main characters, but if they're introduced well and have their own distinct quirks/purpose to the story I don't see the problem of it. If they're memorable enough, you know? -shrug-

Anywho...hrmm. Personal peeves --

-The "shopping list description" someone mentioned earlier. "So they went and did this and when they came back (short conversation) and they went and did something else." I feel bad because it's more a stage than anything else, but I really can't stand it. >-<

-EXTRA description. Just because the character spent three days walking doesn't mean you need three pages describing every tree he walked by! (Well, unless there's something you need to focus on, obviously...) Give enough description for a good feel of what you're talking about - a paragraph or two on where he passed through and what he did - and move on, or you'll lose me. Give it as many words as it deserves emphasis, you know?

-Hrm...not coming up with anything. Cliches that make me wince, maybe. Cheesy endings. Utterly unrealistic stuff with no backstory behind them - I mean, obviously dragons are fine in fantasy, but does it really make sense for your chara to be riding The Only Dragon On Earth That Roars Loudly Wherever He Goes But No One Ever Sees Him Anyway if he's just an ordinary teenage kid?

What I mean with too many characters is putting too many characters in there that don't add anything to the story and people don't remember their names. I didn't introduce them very well either. I makes histories and names for all my characters, that's not it. But they take the attention away from the main storyline and that is not something you want in a story, right? The problem was they weren't memorable. They were important to me ofcourse and I knew them all, but I let some of my friends read the story and they got confused with all the characters. That is something I want to prevent these days. It has to be clear who is who and what role they play in the story.

How about things being corny? How do you guys feel about that?

Cheese factor is ok as long as it's is good cheesy- like.... the story is serious then there's the dork that says something stupidly funny and it takes the edge off the scene for the characters.

My editor's pet peeve is under using she and he, and words like that. Sometimes less is more, and you can write words like that till the cows come home. Putting passion into every he said and she said makes the moment become vanilla. The eye accepts repetition of that word easily.

I am however a failier at grammar. I think I pass on most of the rest. I've never been that good at that side of english. My story lines always made up for my lack of grammar skills ^^ I'm improving though. My editor finally got me stopping writng "Let out" in a sentance. It use to make her think the character was fartign rather than letting out a scream or something ^^ That, and guys giggling... like- tough guys. It can be tricky to think in character sometimes ^^;

On Sep 6, 2007 3:36 pm, arkillian said:
[quote]

Cheese factor is ok as long as it's is good cheesy- like.... the story is serious then there's the dork that says something stupidly funny and it takes the edge off the scene for the characters.[/quote]

I can handle mild cheese. It's hard to write anti-cheese really, specially for beginner authors and I understand that. It's when cheese turns into a "Cheese Filled Jaffel Full of Corn, Covered in Double Cheese" that it gets abit unbearable. Some people try to do epic. Note: do not try to do epic. In my opinion, epic stories are created almost accidently. They don't start out with that intention, they just get that way. Try to do epic, and it'll very quickly cross the line into cheese bagel (with the creamy creamy cheese).

My editor's pet peeve is under using she and he, and words like that. Sometimes less is more, and you can write words like that till the cows come home. Putting passion into every he said and she said makes the moment become vanilla. The eye accepts repetition of that word easily.

My eye doesn't :P Word repetition will irritate me no end, to the point where I'll find it difficult to concentrate on the story should it occur frequently. He and she... hmmm... well again I think there's a limit to that. I usually try to use to use the characters names at least once per paragraph, and she/he the rest of the time.

And yeah, too many characters can get confusing. Unless they are completely relevant to the plot or going to appear later, I usually won't give much of a background to side characters. One friend of mine wrote a 2 page speel introducing a farmer character - his family history, life so far, interests - and then killed him off. What was the point of that lol :P

On Sep 6, 2007 3:36 pm, arkillian said:
[quote]

I am however a failier at grammar. I think I pass on most of the rest. I've never been that good at that side of english. My story lines always made up for my lack of grammar skills ^^ I'm improving though. My editor finally got me stopping writng "Let out" in a sentance. It use to make her think the character was fartign rather than letting out a scream or something ^^ That, and guys giggling... like- tough guys. It can be tricky to think in character sometimes ^^;

[/quote]

Oh yes, I agree. It can be tricky to think in character. Especially when you're in the middle of developing their personality or the setting. But then again sometimes it just happens naturally. Practise makes perfect hehe. Sometimes I just drabble a bit to see how people would act in certain situations, to get to know the character better. That helps me to think like them.

On Sep 6, 2007 2:25 pm, Lhunuial said:
[quote]

What I mean with too many characters is putting too many characters in there that don't add anything to the story and people don't remember their names. I didn't introduce them very well either. I makes histories and names for all my characters, that's not it. But they take the attention away from the main storyline and that is not something you want in a story, right? The problem was they weren't memorable. They were important to me ofcourse and I knew them all, but I let some of my friends read the story and they got confused with all the characters. That is something I want to prevent these days. It has to be clear who is who and what role they play in the story.

How about things being corny? How do you guys feel about that?

[/quote]

Ah, yeah, I see what you're saying there.

Corny...hrm, depends on the situation. If the author knows full well it's corny and is making a joke out of it, yanno, sure. If it's not too bad and the rest of the story's all right, I'm okay with it. It's when I see it constantly, bad enough to make me wince, that I go and hide in a corner. xD (Same goes for cheesy, etc. - I wasn't too clear before.)

On Sep 6, 2007 3:36 pm, arkillian said:

[quote]

It can be tricky to think in character sometimes ^^;

[/quote]

Yah. Can't tell you the number of characters I've dropped or set aside just because I couldn't get into their heads...Ren needs to develop her charas more before she writes with them Dx